[quote=“plunderbunnie”]
I don’t think Tarantino casts the women, or really any women, as a way to exploit them. Instead, he seems to cast women as interesting characters, as he casts men as interesting characters, and by doing this he really balances out the sexes.
It’s not about her being a women, or a sex object, she clearly isn’t any more then any of the men in the story in Kill Bill. If she was the fights with the chicks would be full of sexual sounding moans, and she wouldn’t be smeared in disturbing amounts of blood (fight with Elle. Not exactly sexy stuff). She’d also be wearing sexually appealing clothing, having ridiculously pointless shots of her bod, etc.
Instead she’s simply a pissed off person who has been wronged. Its not this over-reactive, woman scorned bullshit either. Its a genuinely pissed off, level headed person who wants savage brutal revenge. What I like about QT is that he ignores gender more, and goes for character. Beatrix isn’t a scourned, strong, sexy or any other kind of woman. She’s Beatrix Kiddo, a character in a story that is not constricted by her gender in any way. She’s not “girly” she’s not “butch” she just is, like most of us.
[/quote]
Aye, that’s precisely why I love her character. However, for some reason I am fascinated by her appearance when she fights Elle. I find her being covered in blood, dirt, bruises and ragged clothes not sexy, but attractive. In a way she is very Spartan-like, but impressively beautiful at the same time. I love the scene where she breaks out of the grave, and I love the scene where she walks across the desert.
I’m a chick and I think Kill Bill is a very powerful feminist film. In fact, I become extremely offended & pissed when I hear about a woman who criticizes QT on behalf of all women. I feel like screaming, “Thank you very much I can form my own opinions, BITCH!â€
Oh yea, to answer your question: Hell No! A man couldn’t be The Bride or Kill Bill would be just like every other action revenge flick ever made. It’a a love story between mother & daughter and another love story between two killers. If Bill & Beatrix switched places and the movie was called Kill Beatrix, I think the film would send the wrong message.
So weve established that a man could not have played the role, it just would not have been the same film. i do not personally feel that the bride is sexually exploited in anyway in terms of her appearance on screen and i strongly agree with the contrasting comparison made with Charlie’s Angels. However, the representation of this character is so extreme and perhaps the most extreme (allbeit powerful and inspirational) of any woman seen in film before that it hastens the question;
Is the representation of the bride so extreme, to the point of denigrating the possibility of such actions being carried out by a woman and only to be brought alive in fictional motion picture?
With the modern day stereotyes in our society, does this conform or challenge these stereotypes? I know that Tarantino was brought up by a very successful single mother that lead to him feeling that there were no boundaries in terms of what women can and can’t do but does this solely explain the reason behind the bride having no gender boundaries face her in the movie?
Kill Bill was a feminist film but Id say in Death Proof, QT took the feminist aspect even further. It wasnt fake kung fu/sword fighting stuff. The girls of DP were very real to me. Thats what made it so impactful at the end when they turn the tables on ol Mike. I love that ending so much.
The last three QT films, beginning with Jackie Brown, were all feminist in a certain way. Which is quite fascinating, considering that Tarantino’s fanbase is predominantely male.
I think QT has been using his films not only to make great genre stories but to put women more up front as strong figures in film, which is great. As Max Cherry would say “Nothin wrong with that”.
[quote=“Scarface”]
The last three QT films, beginning with Jackie Brown, were all feminist in a certain way. Which is quite fascinating, considering that Tarantino’s fanbase is predominantely male.
[/quote]
yeah, his mother was a strong female figure in his life. some of the tarantino books mention how this permeates in his earlier movies too - cant remember how off the top of my head at all though
edit: maybe something bout his dad not being around when he was growing up
[quote=“PopeyePete”]
We forgot True Romance. Alabama fucks Virgil up 100%. Id say Alabama is the precursor to the gals like Zoe and Kim in Death Proof.
[/quote]
right, Alabama kicks asses!
"Is the representation of the bride so extreme, to the point of denigrating the possibility of such actions being carried out by a woman and only to be brought alive in fictional motion picture?"
Do you mean this will happen to other female characters in film or to women in real life? If you think this will effect how women are perceived in reality, I think that’s irrelevant because The Bride exists exclusively in a universe that is not our reality. It’s not even movie reality! It’s Tarantino’s movie reality where the rules are slightly askew.
Stereotypes of and about women have always existed. Contemplating what the lasting effects of a character like the Bride will have on women is a slippery slope. This is because inevitably some jerk off somewhere will accuse QT, or any other like minded artist, of corrupting the self esteem of young girls or inspiring them to become violent and this will ultimately lead to censorship. I say, HORSE SHIT! Censorship will not fix the problem and it should be avoided at all costs! Besides, removing women from violent films is another form of censorship.
The only way stereotypes against women in film will be knocked down is more women need to make movies. They need to make movies that are entertaining to them. I was watching The Lot and one of the judges (Gary Marshal I think) kept telling the female directors to make a film from a woman’s perspective. This really pissed me off. The problem is he doesn’t know what a woman’s perspective is. No one does! Because most women haven’t found there voice yet!
So, challenging QT’s representation of women is irresponsible because no matter how much he loves & respects women he’ll always be representing them from a man’s point of view. And that’s OK because he’s honest in is approach to movie making and his films are just plain fun!
I suspect the only thing QT really wanted to do was make a kick ass movie that would entertain anyone with a great sense of humor. He also wanted to make a film that would entertain him self.
What i meant was, does the brides character take the piss a little bit? does it undermine a woman’s ability to be so ruthless and empowering because its saying that this could never happen? If QT is presenting women from a man’s point of view, does that make them unrealistic characters? does it simply make them appear as male ideals? and is this fair? Its all very well to say his films are “just plain fun!” but i think we’ve gone beyond general opinions and more towards some meaningful analysis.
QT loves to play with stereotypes, thats obvious, but I don’t think he does this along gender lines, at least not in Kill Bill. I don’t see anything overly masculine or feminine about BEatrix. I see her as just a well crafted character, not defined by her gender, or specifically trying to contrast her gender, she just is.
[quote=“Todd MacD”]
What i meant was, does the brides character take the piss a little bit? does it undermine a woman’s ability to be so ruthless and empowering because its saying that this could never happen? If QT is presenting women from a man’s point of view, does that make them unrealistic characters? does it simply make them appear as male ideals? and is this fair? Its all very well to say his films are “just plain fun!” but i think we’ve gone beyond general opinions and more towards some meaningful analysis.
[/quote]
I think theres certain parts that show her vulnerability. Like when shes raped in the hospital by Buck, when Budd bushwhacks her and buries her (I still dont know why she doesnt utter a word to Budd when he talks to her) And when we see The Bride covered in dirt/mud through the 9th chapter, I think QT was using Uma almost as his cinematic sandbox toy, which adds a comedic effect to the film.
No, I don’t think it undermines “a woman’s ability to be so ruthless and empowering because it’s saying that this could never happen.”
Look, in virtually all action movies whether the hero is a male or female the scenario that is presented to the audience will never happen. Think about it,
Jackie Chan movies = never gonna happen!
Bruce Willis in a movie like Die Hard = never gonna happen.
Antonio Benderas in Once Upon a Time in Mexico or the Mexican= never ever gonna happen!
People don’t watch these movies and say,“I think it undermines a man’s ability to be so ruthless and empowering because it’s saying that this could never happen.”
You wrote, "If QT is presenting women from a man’s point of view, does that make them unrealistic characters?"
Why does it matter? Of course she’s an unrealistic character! Bill is an unrealistic character and Hatori Hanzo (he’s not an original QT character but even so…) is an unrealistic character!
Vince Vega and Jules are unrealistic characters! Stuntman mike is an unrealistic character. Who cares as long as they capture the audience’s imagination!
You also wrote,"does it simply make them appear as male ideals? and is this fair?"
Yes it does and yes it is fair! Here’s why, let’s examine Bruce Willis in the Die Hard series. Isn’t he another “male ideal”? Sure he’s not an overly sexualized and objectified male ideal but he’s a male ideal none the less. He is what some men consider to be the perfect manly man.
A better example is James mother f~ckin Bond! He is quintessentially what every guy aspires to be. He’s handsome, he’s sexy, he’s suave, he always gets the girl and he’s a bad ass! Sure, the Bond gals are nothing more than empty headed sex objects. So is James Bond! He’s, at best, a two dimensional character that does the same sh~t in every single movie. He drinks a martini, he drives a fast car, he encounters something that explodes, he finds the bad guy, bad guy explains what he’s about to do, Bond stops the bad guy and finally Bond gets to nail the hot babe. End of movie. Roll the f~ckin credits.
I agree that [i]“we’ve gone beyond general opinions and more towards some meaningful analysis.â€
[quote=“Bkiddo”]
The guys from Goodfellas or the Sapranos = never gonna happen and these guys are terrible stereotypes of Italians. [/quote]
Whaa? GoodFellas was based on a real story/biography. Henry Hill and all those guys were real people (same with Casino). Its as real as it gets.
Also, Henry Hill himself has said that The Sopranos is the closest thing to the real mafia as hes seen displayed on the screen. He should know, he was in there with the real guys for 25 years.
OK, you’ve got me! :o I was throwing something out there off the top of my head. Also, Goodfellas was on tv when I typed that comment. So, I apologize I’m not that familiar w/ the history of the Italian mafia. Also, Goodfellas & The Sopranos don’t really fall under the action genre. Aside from being based on a biography, I think they are more in the category of Drama. What do you think?
Anyway, please forget the Goodefellas & Sopranos reference. I will go ahead and delete that portion of my comment. Aside from that can you see my original point?
[quote=“Pete”]
Whaa? GoodFellas was based on a real story/biography. Henry Hill and all those guys were real people (same with Casino). Its as real as it gets.
Also, Henry Hill himself has said that The Sopranos is the closest thing to the real mafia as hes seen displayed on the screen. He should know, he was in there with the real guys for 25 years.
[/quote]
[quote]No, I don’t think it undermines “a woman’s ability to be so ruthless and empowering because it’s saying that this could never happen.”
Look, in virtually all action movies whether the hero is a male or female the scenario that is presented to the audience will never happen. Think about it,
Jackie Chan movies = never gonna happen!
Bruce Willis in a movie like Die Hard = never gonna happen.
Antonio Benderas in Once Upon a Time in Mexico or the Mexican= never ever gonna happen!
People don’t watch these movies and say,“I think it undermines a man’s ability to be so ruthless and empowering because it’s saying that this could never happen.”
[/quote]
yeah I totally agree. That would be my opinion too except when it comes to writing a Media Studies A-level: Critical Research Study on ‘how the female characters in Tarantino’s films challenge and conform to traditional stereotypes’ I cant really write ‘Well the films aren’t real, the characters are unrealistic and the scenarios would never happen so its pointless analysing these characters in order to answer the question.’ Don’t think thats gonna get me many marks somehow. Thanks for your opinion though, its still very useful.
Instead im looking more down the line of something like:
Tarantino explores the concept of womanhood very thoroughly in Kill Bill with Beatrix Kiddo as the definitive reference and the conclusion that the overriding element to being a woman is to be a mother. Kiddo sheds her roles like a snake skin to achieve this: from killer, to expectant mother and wife-to-be before returning to killer and finally mother once more. This elevates the maternal role as one that is worthy of the utmost respect. Consequently, this justifies anything Kiddo does in order to retain that role. Tarantino sees motherhood as a primal urge; reflected in a title at the end of the film that reads:
The lioness has rejoined her cub and all is right in the jungle
This could be seen as an enforced stereotype but the following titles show that she is a number of other roles as well:
Beatrix Kiddo AKA The Bride AKA Balck Mamba AKA Mommy
This demonstrates that she is three dimensional and does not occupy one role.
Thats some of the kind of theoretical analysis of The bride ive got, if you could add to that or counter it, please do!
[quote=“Bkiddo”]
OK, you’ve got me! :o I was throwing something out there off the top of my head. Also, Goodfellas was on tv when I typed that comment. So, I apologize I’m not that familiar w/ the history of the Italian mafia. Also, Goodfellas & The Sopranos don’t really fall under the action genre. Aside from being based on a biography, I think they are more in the category of Drama. What do you think?
Anyway, please forget the Goodefellas & Sopranos reference. I will go ahead and delete that portion of my comment. Aside from that can you see my original point? [/quote]
No prob. Just wanted to point that out to ya.
I think what Tarantino does with all his films is inject the usual unrelatable movie characters with alot of real life traits that endears them to the audience (see his latest, Death Proof as another example). Thats part of why his films are so great. The Bride included, she may be a super chick, but she also is a caring mother. It creates a really great dynamic in the film. Kill Bill shows women can be very strong while still being very feminine.
Qt always had strong female characters. Reservoir Dogs is the exception but since it was his first film, everyone thought: he made a film with a bunch of guys, it means he makes “men” movies, he don’t care about women. If you read some interviews he gave when RD was released he said it: “there is no woman in RD because there is no room for any female character, but I feel uneasy about it because I know how to write for women”
