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The Natural Born Killers controversy


#1

Quentin himself called Oliver Stone’s “NBK” a “piece of shit”.

It was one of his early scripts that he sold. Oliver Stone made one of his weird anti-media movies out of it.



That Quentin never acknowledged Stones work is a not exactly a miracle. Although I consider NBK as a critical masterpiece, it’s still not what it should have been, if you read QT’s script.



What do you think? Is QT right in hating NBK? I mean, he SOLD it!!! If he doesn’t like what it has become, he should have made it himself…



I recently watched NIXON (by Stone), that’s also a masterpiece. PLATOON, is good, too. U-TURN is a remake of RED ROCK WEST and is definitely worth watching. ANY GIVEN SUNDAY is a football masterpiece too. NATURAL BORN KILLERS fits into that Stone movie buch. Critical, cynic, mature, extreme and thrilling, and weird.



NBK - a damned movie?


#2

I never really liked NBK. I dont think it was right that Oliver Stone took Quentins story/screenplay and fucked it up. QT liked Tony Scotts version of True Romance, because he was cool enough to talk with QT about where he was going with it.  Stone shouldve had enough respect for QT to consult with him, and not just redo the whole story like he ended up doing.



Stone has co-written some great films. Scarface being one of them. Its probably my favorite DePalma film. He also co-wrote Conan The Barbarian, a fun action adventure film.



As far as Stone as a filmmaker, I think hes definitely a great one. From Salvador to Any Given Sunday, his looks at American society, at our flaws and our triumphs are just excellent. My fav Stone films are : Platoon, The Doors, Born on the 4th of July Wall Street and JFK. Platoon (semi auto biographical look at Stones time in Vietnam). The Doors (the rise and fall of one of our greatest American myths/icons, Jim Morrison) Born on The 4th (the story of Ron Kovics tragic life after and before Vietnam), JFK (a look at one mans fight to find the truth behind JFKs assassination), Wall Street (a look at the allure money has on people, how it can enpower and destroy people).



IMO, every film movie geek should have some Oliver Stone films in their collection.


#3

QT hates NBK because Stone didn`t save some elements of the script which were really important to Quentin, like that certain “feel” you got when you are watching Dogs or Pulp, OR True Romance. But still, Oliver owned the script so he had the rights to do whatever he would like to do with it. And it was that asshole Murphy who fucked both Q and his pal, Rand Vossler.

Anyway, I would give NBK 3 out of 5. Actors are good, but I dont really like about Juliette Lewis in this movie, altough She was good in FDTD. Woodys performance is great, and Tom Sizemore is really good too. And the music is pretty good in the film. Other Stone films i really dont lika a lot, but scarface is GOLD!!!


#4

Well,I love NBK…it’s my favorite Oliver Stone film,with Salvador as the second.

Conan and Scarface are just fantastic,with brutal violence…which gives both these movies that extra edge.Also see Midnight Express,another great movie with an Oliver Stone script.


#5

I dont know what to say about NBK. Im really stuck in the middle of this one.

It is very weird and sometimes it got annoying with the weirdness and if the script stayed the way QT wrote it then it would have been much better.

On the other hand,

it is 100% original and a movie which is hard to forget. The performances are great except for Julliet Lewis who just pisses me off in whatever she is in. Tommy Lee Jones blew me away with his performance.

The soundtrack is great and the story is good and some scenes are excellent (i.e. Nicky and Mallory braking away from jail wiht Lenord Cohen in the background … beautiful)

4/5 for me. I understand why QT doesnt like it, of course.



J.W.


#6

It’s ok. Tarantino shouldn’t bitch, he sold it. He would have done the movie a lot better though.


#7

[quote]It’s ok. Tarantino shouldn’t bitch, he sold it. He would have done the movie a lot better though.[/quote]

He shouldnt bitch? If I wrote a screenplay, sold it and the fuckin director ruined the original story, Id be pissed too. QT has every right to bitch about that. Its the same thing that happened with Stephen King and Kubrick’s version of The Shining. If your gonna use someones screenplay, use it, dont turn it into a half-ass piece of shit movie with nothing to do with the writer’s vision.


#8

[quote]


He shouldnt bitch? If I wrote a screenplay, sold it and the fuckin director ruined the original story, Id be pissed too. QT has every right to bitch about that. Its the same thing that happened with Stephen King and Kubrick’s version of The Shining. If your gonna use someones screenplay, use it, dont turn it into a half-ass piece of shit movie with nothing to do with the writer’s vision. ÂÂ
[/quote]He shouldn’t have sold it.


#9

Upon first viewing, I didn’t really like NBK. Now I love it. I understand QT’s complaints and I would probably feel the same way. I still enjoy the film, though. And what’s with all the Lewis bashing ? I liked her as Mallory.



Anyway, anyone know where I can get ahold of Tarantino’s original on the net or are all fakes or something ?


#10

the script that you can download at www.tarantino.info is Tarantino’s original script.


#11

On the From Dusk Till Dawn commentary Quentin calls Juliette Lewis one of the best actresses of her generation.

I tend to agree…

I especially like her in NBK,From Dusk Till Dawn and Cape Fear.


#12

[quote]
He shouldn’t have sold it.
[/quote]
of course he should have. He was a starving artist at the time. He needed the 10g. He bought the red Malibu with it.


#13

[quote]
of course he should have. ÊHe was a starving artist at the time. ÊHe needed the 10g. ÊHe bought the red Malibu with it.[/quote]

No, he shouldnt have sold it. He has said he didnt even care about that Malibu.



NBK shouldve been kept away from Stone. Then we’d have NBK, QTs first movie movie universe film AND Kill Bill his second. :slight_smile:


#14

Let’s say QT never sold NBK and made it after ResDogs, what if NBK would’ve been a commercial flop?



QT got to do Pulp because of the success of ResDogs, but what if NBK would lose money…there’s a possibility he wouldn’t be able to get Pulp off the ground. Or maybe then he would still make Pulp but without a studio this time.



Can you imagine if Pulp was an independent film like Reservoir Dogs?


#15

I can not even begin to stress how much NBK sucked as a movie. Oliver Stone completely ripped apart QT screenplay by making it a huge satire on the media. This much is obvious, but why did it suck? Not becaus eof the message but what the message conveyed. The constant changing of camera angles and bizarre not needed visuals fucked the whole movie up. I think it would have been a way better movie had you taken out everything but the basic story premises.


#16

What did everyone think about the Rodney Dangerfield segment…



I feel the poor response to NBK discouraged our sweaty freind from “acting” forever!!!


#17

[quote]What did everyone think about the Rodney Dangerfield segment…



I feel the poor response to NBK discouraged our sweaty freind from “acting” forever!!![/quote]

Rodney never gets any RESPECT!



“In my high school, the football players were alot tougher, after they sacked the quarterback, they’d go after his FAMILY!” - Back To School (1986)


#18

Hey everybody. I’ve been admiring these forums for quite a while now. I have some comments on NBK and comments on other comments. Here they are:


  1. As far as movies go, NBK is awesome.
  2. As far as Tarantino movies go, NBK is trash and Stone should be shot.
  3. I prefer to think of this film as an Oliver Stone masterpiece as opposed to a Tarantino film.
  4. Tarantino shouldn’t have sold the script, but if I were Tarantino, I’d get pissed to.
  5. Tommy Lee Jones is awesome in this movie.
  6. Acting and directing is superb and original.
  7. Tarantino’s hating of this film should be exclusive to Tarantino. As film fans, I think we should we should give this film an equal oppertunity. If you hate the film, I’m cool with that, but don’t hate it because Stone screwed up a perfectly good Tarantino script…wait…that didn’t make much sense…oh well.

    8) The film would’ve been much better as a strait forward Tarantino film, but Stones turing of the film into a Media Satire is both ingenious and worthy of praise.
  8. If it bothers Tarantino all that much, he should shoot Stone.
  9. All in all, don’t hate on NBK.



    Now for other comments:

[quote]


He shouldnt bitch? If I wrote a screenplay, sold it and the fuckin director ruined the original story, Id be pissed too. QT has every right to bitch about that. Its the same thing that happened with Stephen King and Kubrick’s version of The Shining. If your gonna use someones screenplay, use it, dont turn it into a half-ass piece of shit movie with nothing to do with the writer’s vision. ÂÂ
[/quote]

  1. I’ve seen a bunch of your posts, and you generally have a good idea about what you’re talking about. Not the case here. Your opinion is fine here, but the Stephen King referance is so unbelievably friggin dumb and holds no water. Kubrick is one of the greats. I’d put him in the top 5 of all time, easily (under Tarantino and Hitchcock of course). He did perfect justice to Stephen Kings novel. His vision of the film is far greater than that of Stephen Kings novel (no disrespect to Kubrick). And Stephen did, instead of complaining ,(not that Tarantino shouldn’t mind you), make a new version of the Shining released in 1997. This version overseen by King (but not directed) was four and a half hours long, with incredably slow pacing, and pretty boring. Kubricks 1980 “The Shining” is a masterpiece, while King’s 1997 version is a mess. You had no friggin idea about what you were talking about. End of discussion.

#19

WELL. I don’t know if our dear ToothpickVicVega should be offended or scarred for life! Welcome HOLIDAY- your messianic connotations proceed you.


#20

[quote]Hey everybody. I’ve been admiring these forums for quite a while now. I have some comments on NBK and comments on other comments. Here they are:


  1. As far as movies go, NBK is awesome.
  2. As far as Tarantino movies go, NBK is trash and Stone should be shot.
  3. I prefer to think of this film as an Oliver Stone masterpiece as opposed to a Tarantino film.
  4. Tarantino shouldn’t have sold the script, but if I were Tarantino, I’d get pissed to.
  5. Tommy Lee Jones is awesome in this movie.
  6. Acting and directing is superb and original.
  7. Tarantino’s hating of this film should be exclusive to Tarantino. As film fans, I think we should we should give this film an equal oppertunity. If you hate the film, I’m cool with that, but don’t hate it because Stone screwed up a perfectly good Tarantino script…wait…that didn’t make much sense…oh well.

    8) The film would’ve been much better as a strait forward Tarantino film, but Stones turing of the film into a Media Satire is both ingenious and worthy of praise.
  8. If it bothers Tarantino all that much, he should shoot Stone.
  9. All in all, don’t hate on NBK.



    Now for other comments:




  10. I’ve seen a bunch of your posts, and you generally have a good idea about what you’re talking about. Not the case here. Your opinion is fine here, but the Stephen King referance is so unbelievably friggin dumb and holds no water. Kubrick is one of the greats. I’d put him in the top 5 of all time, easily (under Tarantino and Hitchcock of course). He did perfect justice to Stephen Kings novel. His vision of the film is far greater than that of Stephen Kings novel (no disrespect to Kubrick). And Stephen did, instead of complaining ,(not that Tarantino shouldn’t mind you), make a new version of the Shining released in 1997. This version overseen by King (but not directed) was four and a half hours long, with incredably slow pacing, and pretty boring. Kubricks 1980 “The Shining” is a masterpiece, while King’s 1997 version is a mess. You had no friggin idea about what you were talking about. End of discussion.[/quote]

Holiday, your English is terrible dude. Where are you from?



Yes I meant what I said about the Tarantino/Stone and King/Kubrick comparison. Both films were made without the original writers input and vision. Both films were totally raped by both directors. I hate NBK and I hate The Shining too.



Holiday, I dont talk shit in this forum, I might get a little defensive about certain things, but I do not say things I dont mean.