God your a fucking loser Redkings. Fuck off troll - and get a fucking life you worthless piece of shit.
[quote]
Like i said you geeks over here are in your own little world and
plan on staying in it to the bitter floppy end of kill bill.
And here come the comparisons with Matrix reloaded. I hate to tell you this, but it was made for 300 million and it made
200 million in just two weeks. It has earned 785 million world wide. So let me get this straight. Matrix one made over 400 million (production budget was 68 million thats only 3 more than kill bill) matrix reloaded made 785.  That my friend is
close to 1.2 billion the matrix series has made so far with
a possible 500 million or more with the last installment…
and kill bill is at what? 54 million? After 3 weeks and thats the best it could do? It was made for 65 million and still hasnt recovered its costs… you cant even count foreign gross
because Miramax sold the distribution rights. So miramax
spent 65 million and they will make about 70 may be 75 million from this movie…I know investment mathematics is not your
forte’ but spending that amount of money to make 5 million or
even 10 million in profit is a fiscal disaster. That money could have earned that amount in the two years Tarantino spent making that movie just sitting in a bank. Now on the other
hand spending 368 million to make over 1 billion dollars. that my friend is what is defined as sucess…
Keep on dreaming.
Ps… Kill bill fell all the way to no.7 after only 2 weeks? thats embarrasing man. That was the most anticipated movie of the year. And Roger Ebert gave it a million stars. It should have grossed more than a miserable 22 million opening weekend. It should have held number one spot for at least two weeks.
I guess it just plain sucks and no one is going back for the
second.
[/quote]
Any true movie fan knows that the box office isn’t the proper way to see if a film is good or not. Many great movies have done terrible at the box office. Kill Bill isn’t one of these, but the way films should be judged is by reviews, which I’m sure you noticed were very good for Kill Bill.
There are true statements, and then there are absolutely true statements.
One of these absolutely true statements is that quality of a movie is not judged by box office.
Let’s look at phenominal movies that didn’t do well in the box office.
Reservoir Dogs
True Romance
Memento
Usual Suspects (I don’t think it did too well)
The Big Lebowski
The Man Who Wasn’t There
Panic Room
Spider - limited release
Only big-budget movies are expected to smash the box office, and considering that Kill Bill is on the lower-end of that spectrum, I think it did very well.
Do not judge quality by quantity of tickets.
Wow.
I just realized that RedKings started this whole escapade because of what I posted.
At least I’m arousing some controversy.
My statement about the Weinstiens was more a comparison to Producers like Michael Bay, Bruckheimer, Spielberg, Lucas, etc. These producers really don’t give a flying fuck through a rolling doughnut about the quality of the movie. They only care about the bottom line.
The weinsteins, however, have clearly done more good for film than bad (I don’t think that’s even debatable). If you look at the shit (and I mean that in the worst possible way) that hollywood was putting out in the eighties, you have to admit that film, in general, is much better quality (and I’m not referring to the physical film quality, but the quality of movies). Mirimax came out with Dogs and Pulp, and suddenly became the front runner for awards ceremonies. If you look back, most categories of academy awards have ‘Miramax’ attached.
Yes, the Weinsteins care about money… I think I mis-spoke before. I didn’t mean to imply that they don’t. By releaseing movies like ‘Scary Movie’ and ‘She’s all that,’ they clearly care about profit. What I meant to imply was that Miramax is just as concerned with releasing quality films. Much more so than say, Paramount.
That is all. Sorry to have aroused such controversy. Oh, wait, no I’m not. 
You are comparing what has been called an independent movie, that has a big budget, to a blockbuster hollywood summer gorge yourself with popcorn movie.
That is stupid.
You are saying box office dictates quality…also very stupid.
You obviously dont get this movie, your complaints are the textbook complaints of someone who does. This movie has already doubled what it cost to make, a sucess, a total. 1 out of 10 movies does extremely well at the box office, and out of that remainer few make more than they cost, i believe 3 or 2. The rest flop hard.
Kill Bill is a movie taht isnt promoted as rampid as the matrix movies. There arent kill bill action figures and lunchboxes. Kill Bill is not a franchise movie. Matrix 2 made almost close to double the first one. That is called hype. That movie was hyped, no wonder most people who saw it thought it sucked donkey balls compared to the first.
You can go back to being teabagged by the Wachowskis now.
[quote]You are comparing what has been called an independent movie, that has a big budget, to a blockbuster hollywood summer gorge yourself with popcorn movie.
That is stupid.
You are saying box office dictates quality…also very stupid.
You obviously dont get this movie, your complaints are the textbook complaints of someone who does.  This movie has already doubled what it cost to make, a sucess, a total.  1 out of 10 movies does extremely well at the box office, and out of that remainer few make more than they cost, i believe 3 or 2.  The rest flop hard. ÂÂ
Kill Bill is a movie taht isnt promoted as rampid as the matrix movies.  There arent kill bill action figures and lunchboxes.  Kill Bill is not a franchise movie.  Matrix 2 made almost close to double the first one.  That is called hype.  That movie was hyped, no wonder most people who saw it thought it sucked donkey balls compared to the first.
You can go back to being teabagged by the Wachowskis now.[/quote]
Here we go again with the finger pointing. And the good thing is we have a very clear record of those with a penchant for name calling and try to diss The matrix every chance they get.
Up until that last post i had not made any comparisons to the
matrix you guys brought it up. here is the exact quote
[quote]
a flop? hardly. just because it didn’t make 200 million like reloaded, which was one of the biggest disappointments of the year, doesn’t make something a failure.
fortunately i hear that revolutions is better. we will see
.[/quote]
And there are more before this but you guys are way too biased to see that. You prefer to accuse me at the first chance you get of bringing up the very evil “Matrix” like i suggested before, say what you want to about Kill bill, but if
you slip up and make wayward references to the matrix, i will be the first to remind you of how differently the two movies
performed…
Secondly THE BOX OFFICE DOES DETERMINE a great deal of what is considered to be a good movie and what isnt. I have already explained this in detail but apparently it blew right by some of your heads. I will break it down in even simpler language.
If a movie lets say “Kill bill” opens at number one and rakes 22 million (bad for a movie of this calibre which ever way you look
at it) and spends up a week at the number one spot thus ensuring a fair share of the public has viewed this feature. If the movie in question (like kill bill) proceeds to nose dive from the top losing more than 50% of its original gross and by the third week is replaced by mediocre micro wave horror comedies
and is wallowing at the number 7 spot, that is a very good indication that this movie was a flop that only got by opening weekend based on commercials and reknown actors and directors etc. Such a decline is attributed to the fact that the majority of the mainstream public is not sold on the movie and will no recommend it to any of their friends.
All the movies previously listed as “good movies” DID NOT bust
in the box office at number 1 and proceed to fall out on the top 10 like a ton of bricks. They typically dont get enough public recognition or are dwarfed by other synthetic block busters being pitched left and right. But if a movie is genuinely good and is recieving outstanding reviews from old
foggies like Ebert (who is way out of touch with todays public taste as exemplified by his review of Kill bill) word of mouth alone will help it sustain decent numbers at the box office (just like pulp fiction or the “The matrix”) and at times even force theatres to re-open the movie just based on word of mouth. (Just like the annoyingly ubiquitous My big fat Greek wedding) And screw the spelling nazis if i got that word wrong)
So if a movie with a strong opening weekend tanks and ultimately flops like kill bill, that is a very good example of a
bad movie. If the movie never appears on the public radar but is good and does poorly at the box office its only a victim of
circumstances outside of its content. Kill bill can hardly blame
the release of other craptastic movies like scary movie 3
or TCM for its demise. If it is the artistic innovative movie Ebert describes it as, it should have been able to with stand
the attack of the killer teen bust out the popcorn movies.
Ps…Ever heard of the saying 99% of art is crap?
[quote]You are comparing what has been called an independent movie, that has a big budget,
.[/quote]
Here we go again. Kill bill? And independent movie? what the hell are you smoking man? And when i call you myopic and biased you accuse me of being vindictive? Come on! lay off this crap and try to argue in a manner that does not make you look immature or just plain ignorant of what you are talking about.
[quote]
You obviously dont get this movie, your complaints are the textbook complaints of someone who does…[/quote]
so what are you saying here. Do i get the movie or i dont. that
statement is on both sides of the argument so to speak
[quote]
This movie has already doubled what it cost to make, a sucess
[/quote]
ok my mathematics might be bad but even i can figure out the outright lie you just told. There is no way you can even stretch your argument to come any where near close to the numbers you seem to be the only one who has access to.
kill bill was made for 65 million but lets go with 55 million because you losers are in denial. The movie has only made 54 million in the USA. That means its 1 million short of its cost price at the mythical 55 million or 11 million behind the true number at 65 million.
SO tell me Mr Huzzah, where you learnt your mathematics and how that 54 million translates into 110 million which is the number it would have to be at to double its production cost.
Take a deep breath man. go outside smell a flower or two and wake up to the real world man!
lol!
- 54 million is what volume 1 & 2 cost combined. so far volume 1 has made what, 50 million? another movie still has to be released. it’s fair to say vol. 1 still will make another 10-15 million at least in the next few weeks of release. it’s also fair to say vol. 2 will make at least another 50 million upon it’s release. i think it’s safe to assume that making a movie for 55-60 million that makes back well over 110 million is a success. find me someone in hollywood who says that is anything close to a failure.
- reloaded is a mediocre movie at best. no matter what. i don’t care how much money it made, the american public is not one to judge to merit of ANY type of art. 300 million dollar profit means jack shit, it only means that all the idiots in this country really like whatever shit movie is shoved down their throats.
Redkings would like to think he has done his homework.
Someone studied harder.
(warning… philosophy approaching)
The theory regarding a movie opening at number one and then tanking being an indication of a bad movie is actually an antiquated but somewhat correct one. If the majority of people do not find it fulfilling enough to see again or if word of mouth does not sustain the sales, this could be considered a sign of a ‘bad’ movie.
This idea is the whole theory behind Utilitarian societies. It is upheld by the idea of ‘Social relativism’ which John Stuart Mills first theorized (he largly targeted Good vs. Bad in the moral sense, but this also applies to taste).
America is a utilitarian society. It is a society that believes that whatever is best for the whole or majority must therefore be good, and doing something else would be wrong. Most industrialized and educated societies are, in fact, utilitarian, and actually must necessarily run parallel to democracy.
So… that long introduction should serve to prove that I do indeed understand what you are saying, and acknowledge it as a most reasonable conclusion: Since Kill Bill is at number 7 in only its third week, it must be bad.
However, this is not the way that many people think. I, for one, am a fan of the theory of ‘subjectivism.’ Subjectivism was a theory introduced prior to cultural relativism by David Hume. Hume said that all human opinions are not inherently good or bad. Each person has their own opinions and each is valid, so long as it is reached by a rational decision.
So… to the brunt of the post:
I am a firm believer that Kill Bill is a technical, conceptual, and physical achievement. It is a revitalization of Asian film, while also a marrage of American pop culture, spaghetti western, woman-empowerment, and things of this nature (I digress).
To say that Kill Bill is a ‘bad’ movie is to say the same about Asian filmmakers, cutting-edge directors, and anyone who had a dream and made a technically successful piece out of it.
It’s one thing to say that you did not like it. I can respect an opinion (as wrong as I think it is). However, Kill Bill is, by definition, really, not a ‘bad’ movie. Kill Bill succeeded on every level it was trying to succeed at, which technically makes it a success. It employed every trick in the book (split-screen, black and white, sillouette, slow-motion, and it frigging mixed genre’s, which is NEVER seen nowadays), and did it well. Every critic (every ‘respectable’ critic, anyway… even neglecting to include Roger Ebert) unanimously agrees that Kill Bill is beautiful, technically remarkable, cutting-edge, and some have called it a masterpiece.
I agree.
I don’t see how anyone could not agree.
I also do not participate in the seemingly-obligatory Matrix-bashing. I appreciate Reloaded for what I hope (emphasis on ‘hope’) it was meant to be… an introduction to Revolutions.
[quote]
Here we go again with the finger pointing. And the good thing is we have a very clear record of those with a penchant for name calling and try to diss The matrix every chance they get.
Up until that last post i had not made any comparisons to the
matrix you guys brought it up. here is the exact quote
[/quote]
Jesus H Christ redkings. Do you not understand. when someone comlains about the matrix, it is because you clearly compaired it to that movie. When you are compairing Kill Bill to the Matrix many people who hated the matrix and loved bill are going to bash on the movie that you compaired it to.
Low let’s stay on topic. Kill Bill cost 55 some odd million to make, and that’s a fact. It has grossed about 54 maybe 55 million. Our point is that making back all the money is not a bad thing. Then there is Part 2. Then there is DVD for volume 1. then there is the DVD for volume 2. Then there is the DVD for both volumes with many extra featues. That is 4 more things to make a proffit off of when the gross is already about 100%, there is nothing but a profit to make back next. And with 3 mediums to do that with, we are looking forword to nothing but cash.
We can’t yet say Kill Bill is a flop because it isn’t finished. When Kill Bill volume 2 comes out then we will have smething to say.
P.S Redkings, don’t get off topic. this is what we are talking about, so don’t put words into my mouth and don’t get off topic.
Redkings . . . Is this forum an itch that you constantly have to scratch? I mean, you write a whole essay on why box office figures are an important factor in making a movie good or bad…why do this? You can deal with your own time any way you want but your ranting is getting tiresome.
You despised Kill Bill Vol. 1 and that you made very very clear. Now move on to another subject or just stop ranting about this over and over again.
Most Tarantino fans loved Kill Bill Vol. 1 (i go to two forums: this one and JoBlo.com and people loved it with a few exceptions like you) and this is the most important point. Tarantino made this movie for a) himself and b) for his fans. FULL STOP. He satisifed both his fans and himself and this is the most important thing, which i think overrules any box office number you bring up be it TCM, SC3, KB or Matrix.
Everyone that i talked to loved this movie, even my college cinema professor, and when i went out last night with some friends i havent seen in a long time, we started talkin about movies and when i said i was going to see ‘Mystic River’ they asked if i saw Kill Bill and said how they loved it (point being made is that they didnt ask about TCM or stupid Scary Movie 3). And these people are not even Tarantino fans (not like me and others on this board).
There’s no point in saying how critics praised it becuase i would just be repeating what others (and I) have said in the past, and you would ignore it still.
I dont care if the budget was 65 or 55. I dont care if it was ‘only 3 more than Matrix and look at Matrix and wow Matrix did an amazing job and its an excellent movie because it trippled its production cost and made so much profit and wow and …’ seriously. Who ever started this dumbass Matrix - Kill Bill “war” was high- you can stop bringing it up all the time. I am a Matrix fan but i dont blab on an on about it do i ?
Kill Bill Vol. 1 is the best movie of the year. This is my opinion. You may say i am in a dream world and that i should wake up and smell the box office numbers becuase then i will see how stupid i am to love a movie that flopped so badly in your opinion. I say let me be in peace with my opinion.
Done.
J.W.
[quote]Redkings would like to think he has done his homework.
Someone studied harder.
(warning… philosophy approaching)
The theory regarding a movie opening at number one and then tanking being an indication of a bad movie is actually an antiquated but somewhat correct one.  If the majority of people do not find it fulfilling enough to see again or if word of mouth does not sustain the sales, this could be considered a sign of a ‘bad’ movie.
[/quote]
first of all, i dont claim to have studied any complex theories on utilitarian societies or subjectivism to make my argument. I just applied simple ole common sense some simple logic to come to the conclusions i did. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what i had concluded matter of fact any one aware of Pulp fiction’s performance at the box office could have come to that same conclusion on their own. But thinking about Kill bill objectively is the last thing that is going to come from any one on this board.
[quote]However, this is not the way that many people think. [/quote]
NOTE: For those not involved in this discussion you would be advised to skip this part because you just wont get it.
I think you need to re-examine your theory or take it back to the drawing board because it seems like you did not understand it. Particularly when it comes to the differene between the minority who apply your “subjective” way of thinking as opposed to “utilitarian”. And having studied this topic in depth, i am wondering why you would make such a ridiculous assertion that “many” people dont think like that.
Are you kidding me? Unless you are using the word “many” to
refer to a sizeable number of minority views. But even you have to be aware that the over whelming majority subscribe to the “utilitarian” train of thought. That is the very basis of this society. From products like Microsoft windows to the japanese automobiles you drive and the Ethiopian arabica coffee you drink. All benefactors of the utilitarian societies way of thought.
So the very first line in your alternative opinion is a falsehood
or a poorly contructed sentence.
IE. You can not assert that " many" people subscribe to the
“subjectivism” theory. That is tremendously wrong or just plain naive. If you were even half way close on that one, we would not even be here debating this issue.
[quote]
I am a firm believer that Kill Bill is a technical, conceptual, and physical achievement. It is a revitalization of Asian film, while also a marrage of American pop culture, spaghetti western, woman-empowerment, and things of this nature (I digress).[/quote]
And therein lies the problem with subjectivism . (for those lost
he is more less arguing that beauty is in the eye of the beholder)
You have listed all the positive qualities of the movie kill bill, but conveniently left out the glaring short comings even as submitted by the artist (Quentin Tarantino) who created the
piece of art in question. You have already violated the very important stipulation you yourself listed. “RATIONALE”. You seem to have some how missed the fact that kill bill fell short of some very basic standards of a typical classic movie (which by the way if you actually read the Ebert review would have found mentioned in one or two lines.) Technical, conceptual (that is very much debatable) and physical achievements are borderline achievements that dont even meet basic requirements for one episode of “Alias”. You have
so obviously overlooked the lack of subtext, credible story line
(possible even in a kungfu movie) or a coherent one for that matter, lack of identifiable characters or depth, no originality or innovative ideas. You my friend lack rationale. And as a whole can not qualify to apply your “subjectivism” train of thought to this argument
[quote]
To say that Kill Bill is a ‘bad’ movie is to say the same about Asian filmmakers, cutting-edge directors, and anyone who had a dream and made a technically successful piece out of it.).[/quote]
Here is another wayward and poorly thought up summation that was part of your theory. Some critics pretty much called
kill bill a bad karaoke compilation of various movie genres.
You are struggling so hard to make arguments and are coming up with some silly summations. Let me get this straight. If i dont like the way some tone deaf drunk girl at the local bar does her rendition of say Celine Dione then you automatically assume i dont understand that genre of music or dont appreciate Celine Dione? Where do you come up with these conclusions from? Its just silly to for one to make such outlandish theories. I dont like Kung pow chicken at a certain local diner so now i dont appreciate asian cuisine? COME ON! Besides if you had read my previous opinion
on Tarantino and his alleged homage to asian film makers there is no way you would bring that lame argument any where near me.
[quote]
Every critic (every ‘respectable’ critic, anyway… even neglecting to include Roger Ebert) unanimously agrees that Kill Bill is beautiful, technically remarkable, cutting-edge, and some have called it a masterpiece…[/quote]
I just dont know where you have been reading your reviews or that you even understand the meaning of unanimity. The critics of this movie are no where near that. I hate to get technical on you but its not my fault you constantly make unqualified statements.
And i can look up crappy ass movies that have gotten similar
rave reviews from the so called “respected critics”. (I wonder
how you post this last paragraph after ranting on and on
about subjectivism. Or are you implying that its the critics that tell us what to like and what not to like?
Its not the critics who decide what is a masterpiece and what is not. Its people like you and I
sad…
Redkings you stupid ass.
If you think that a movie is good if it earns big money, go watch all huge-grossers in this world and die of it! go watch every bullshit mainstream shitmovie that grosses millions! GO AHEAD WE DONT STOP YOU!
but stop garbaging this message board, or I’ll kick you out of it.
Buy posting this crap you are violating board rules, which clearly state that you are not supposed to post off-topic. And what you’re doing here, is posting off-topic, as this is only dealing with the business aspect of Kill Bill.
You came to this board and all you do is annoy everybody. This is your last warning: leave or stop posting that senseless shit. GROW UP! Go to school or kindergarten or whatever you’re supposed to do
[quote]Redkings . . . Is this forum an itch that you constantly have to scratch? I mean, you write a whole essay on why box office figures are an important factor in making a movie good or bad…why do this? You can deal with your own time any way you want but your ranting is getting tiresome.
J.W.
 [/quote]
Takes two to tango. And you Mr winfield are working up a pretty thick sweat on this one. And at the risk of sounding redundant, "No one forces you to sit infront of your pc
to see the next thing Redkings is posting about kill bill.
Or may is it that you just cant deal with the truth.
[quote]
I just dont know where you have been reading your reviews or that you even understand the meaning of unanimity. The critics of this movie are no where near that. I hate to get technical on you but its not my fault you constantly make unqualified statements.
And i can look up crappy ass movies that have gotten similar
rave reviews from the so called “respected critics”. (I wonder
how you post this last paragraph after ranting on and on
about subjectivism. Or are you implying that its the critics that tell us what to like and what not to like?
Its not the critics who decide what is a masterpiece and what is not. Its people like you and I[/quote]
DID YOU EVEN LOOK AT THE LINKS I GAVE YOU???
What is wrong with you! I supplied MANY links that all say how great Kill Bill is from the POV of critics and the general moviegoing public.
as a member of this forum you are a guest. If you insult the host, a guest usually gets kicked out of the backdoor.
that just happened to poor Redkings after a grave insult that has already been deleted.
Just for the record: I’d never kick somebody because he doesn’t like one of Tarantino’s movies. I am kicking somebody because he starts garbaging the board, insulting people or giving me work that I don’t want because he is a little kid who doesn’t get enough attention.
let’s now get back on topic.
how’s Kill Bill performing internationally? any figures?
Thanks Seb ;D.
[quote]as a member of this forum you are a guest. If you insult the host, a guest usually gets kicked out of the backdoor.
that just happened to poor Redkings after a grave insult that has already been deleted.
Just for the record: I’d never kick somebody because he doesn’t like one of Tarantino’s movies. I am kicking somebody because he starts garbaging the board, insulting people or giving me work that I don’t want because he is a little kid who doesn’t get enough attention.
let’s now get back on topic.
how’s Kill Bill performing internationally? any figures?[/quote]
Thanks and, I’ve been wondering that myself. Last i heard it was at around 55 million.