Are QT's characters evil people?

The Films Other Tarantino Films
21

[quote]@ Tarantino is god:



Can you hook me up with some more information?

Afaik it was Schopenhauer how said: “Ding an sich aber ist allein der Wille!” = Which means that the base is the free will and it was Kant who said, that we understand things not like they are, but like we see them.[/quote]

Yes, well schopenhauers theory is based a lot on Kant’s, imo he perfected/corrected it more…



Schopenhauer takes kants theory and talks about object and subject: one cant excist without the other.

And says that everything is just Vorstellung, even your own body…but your mind is what makes the subject and is dependent on your body but also limited by it.

We are all limited to our senses…like a cat is more limited in some ways then we are and more advanced in other ways…we are also just humans with a certain package with which we sense the world around us. We cant even tell if it is real what is happening around us, for all we know its all a dream.



Schopenhauer then comes to the conclusion that the body is controlled by the will…and so are our actions.



It’s kinda hard for me to take this serieus stuff, where a great man thought about, and just make a summary of it…you best look some stuff up on the internet, preferebly in german! because some words used cant be translated into english, because the german language is much more richer than the english language…

22

[quote]No I haven’t. I came upon these thoughts myself through various studies of genetics, sociology, psychoanalytics, philosophy, science and mathematics.



In any event, when I spoke about the insane person “swimming,” it was my assertion that the situation was hypothetical, and, outside of that, based upon the world I percieve. As we experience, we, using our logic, can reason that there is a cause to our experiences that mirrors that which we are experiencing. Example: I percieve that I am shot and killed, thus the cause of the perception must be in continuital relavence to that which has occured in my reality.



And as logic goes in humans, everyone to some degree uses logic. The difference between animals and humans is that our ends to the logical means aren’t always logical. We sometimes manipulate logic to fit our values and morals (the desired outcomes which are caused by the reciptivity of ideas to our genetic patterns). Every action a human being does is to benefit himself, be that morally, spiritually, emotionally, financially, physically, psychologically…etc. Good actions are those that we do for ourselves that benefit others (or that take others into concern). Evil actions are those actions we do to benefit ourselves that hurt others (or otherwise disregard the being of others). Due to our predetermined genetic construction, we wish to do one or the other. We may not individually have a choice in what we want to do, but that doesn’t change the fact of what we want to do.



In essence, the fact that it’s not free will doesn’t make it anyless will.
[/quote]


I agree...will plays a big part in how humans act. But will is often confused with free choice in my opinion.
To stay on the subject: mr. blonde for instance, his will drives him to do these psychotic things, but people still wonder why he chooces to be so evil!
While in fact the only thing that drives him is his formed will, not his rational thought. And if this rational thought did control it, its still based on every impulse he got from his time in his mothers whome till one moment in time.
So if you make choices, then this is purely based on will, which is based on who you are in time at that moment.
The decision you make is called in terms of language choice, and I think that is correct, but I think that that choice can never be a free one, because he makes that desicion on who he is.

What do you think?
23

[quote] because the german language is much more richer than the english language…
[/quote]

Gee…thanks… :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]




I agree…will plays a big part in how humans act.  But will is often confused with free choice in my opinion.

To stay on the subject: mr. blonde for instance, his will drives him to do these psychotic things, but people still wonder why he chooces to be so evil!

While in fact the only thing that drives him is his formed will, not his rational thought. And if this rational thought did control it, its still based on every impulse he got from his time in his mothers whome till one moment in time.

So if you make choices, then this is purely based on will, which is based on who you are in time at that moment.

The decision you make is called in terms of language choice, and I think that is correct, but I think that that choice can never be a free one, because he makes that desicion on who he is.



What do you think?
[/quote]

Well, you know what I think…but I’ll write it again (you’re a native German speaker, no? Sorry…I’ll try not to use so many unusual English words this time):


  1. Free choice is a misconception. We can choose from different things, but due to our genetic structuring, we may only choose one thing.


  2. Human beings use morality to rationalize and use rationalization to protect their morals. Mr. Blonde (or many other iconic screen villains, for that matter) desire to cause harm to other people. They are sadists, they are sociopaths (meaning they wish to distance themselves from mankind), and they are evil. They are not insane, for insanity is the complete inability to use or have rational thought. Insanity, like free will, is an illusion…a misconception, if you will. People born with the desire to harm other people may have reason, and use that reason to justify their actions, or they may use reason to plan them, or they may make the conscious decision to reject reason on the basis that they’d prefer not to use it (in a sense, using reason to remove reason).


  3. And again, no one chooses who they are. It’s impossible to do that. All we can do is come to grips with our genetically created personalities and use them A) to benefit others, or B) to harm others. If a person, due to genetic inclination (or any other means) has the will to cause harm to others, he still has the WILL to cause harm to others. The fact that he didn’t create himself is irrelavent. He wouldn’t have it any other way.
24

[quote]


Gee…thanks… :stuck_out_tongue:





Well, you know what I think…but I’ll write it again (you’re a native German speaker, no? Sorry…I’ll try not to use so many unusual English words this time):


  1. Free choice is a misconception. We can choose from different things, but due to our genetic structuring, we may only choose one thing.


  2. Human beings use morality to rationalize and use rationalization to protect their morals. Mr. Blonde (or many other iconic screen villains, for that matter) desire to cause harm to other people. They are sadists, they are sociopaths (meaning they wish to distance themselves from mankind), and they are evil. They are not insane, for insanity is the complete inability to use or have rational thought. Insanity, like free will, is an illusion…a misconception, if you will. People born with the desire to harm other people may have reason, and use that reason to justify their actions, or they may use reason to plan them, or they may make the conscious decision to reject reason on the basis that they’d prefer not to use it (in a sense, using reason to remove reason).


  3. And again, no one chooses who they are. It’s impossible to do that. All we can do is come to grips with our genetically created personalities and use them A) to benefit others, or B) to harm others. If a person, due to genetic inclination (or any other means) has the will to cause harm to others, he still has the WILL to cause harm to others. The fact that he didn’t create himself is irrelavent. He wouldn’t have it any other way.[/quote]

Lol…its really true that the german language is richer than the english language when it comes to philosophical stuff!

Translaters have big troubles to translate works from german to english, because they dont have the right words to use in their translation! I’m not bashing english! lol…I like the english language more than german…I’m from Holland btw…


  1. I agree…


  2. uhuh…do you think that they make the choice to be evil? or just because of who they are, just behave like they are…and that so happens to be called “evil” by the majority of people?


  3. Could you say then that somebody who steals or or murders or commits other harm to society that they actually cant be blamed for it? But rather the system that they are living in creates the enviroment for them which stimulates these impulses, and then leads them to doing things (making choices) that they, would they be in an other system/enviroment wouldnt do?


I’m not trying to win any discussion or anthing or trying tricks like degrading your intelligence…just really interested on what you think, so I can filter my own thoughts…

My english is (sometimes) a bit clumsy, but thats because it aint my first language…but that doesn mean I dont understand or have a low IQ or anything lol…so you really dont have to adjust your expression for me…lol…again I read a lot in english… :wink:

25

[quote]


Lol…its really true that the german language is richer than the english language when it comes to philosophical stuff!

Translaters have big troubles to translate works from german to english, because they dont have the right words to use in their translation! I’m not bashing english! lol…I like the english language more than german…I’m from Holland btw…


  1. I agree…


  2. uhuh…do you think that they make the choice to be evil? or just because of who they are, just behave like they are…and that so happens to be called “evil” by the majority of people?


  3. Could you say then that somebody who steals or or murders or commits other harm to society that they actually cant be blamed for it? But rather the system that they are living in creates the enviroment for them which stimulates these impulses, and then leads them to doing things (making choices) that they, would they be in an other system/enviroment wouldnt do?


I’m not trying to win any discussion or anthing or trying tricks like degrading your intelligence…just really interested on what you think, so I can filter my own thoughts…

My english is (sometimes) a bit clumsy, but thats because it aint my first language…but that doesn mean I dont understand or have a low IQ or anything lol…so you really dont have to adjust your expression for me…lol…again I read a lot in english… :wink:

[/quote]

Alright…let’s see here…



2) I don’t think that they choose their personality, that’d be impossible. I also don’t believe in majority rule (in morality, that’d be). If something’s right, it isn’t because people believe it to be right, but becuase there’s factual or rational backing for it. In the case of evil, an evil action is one that causes harm to others. An evil person is one that is ruled by the desire to cause harm to others, and thusly rules their life with the desire to cause harm. This, of course, originates genetically, much like anything else.



3) The system doesn’t trigger things that weren’t meant to be triggered. What I mean by this is that it isn’t society that causes evil or evil action (per se), it’s the genetic desire to solve problems (or create them, as the case may be) through violence. Everyone acts in a different sitaution in different ways. Situations aren’t the root of evil, though…they’re merely an arena in which true intentions can be viewed. Surely society conditions people for violence and evil actions, but every time any form of conditioning happens, or any idea is presented, the human mind has the ability to accept or reject it. It just depends upon the genetic makeup.



And sorry if I came off as patronizing as far as the language goes. I didn’t mean to be…it just so happens that most English speaking people I know wouldn’t fully understand what I’m saying, and I personally know that I sure as hell wouldn’t be able to understand me in another language. But if you’re cool with what I’ve said (or rather, how I’ve said it) thus far, I am too.

26

Butch and Clarence aren’t evil characters, they converted into evil characters throughout the movie cause of the situations they were in

27

That’s sort of what I think. I believe they’re good people put in bad situations…in QT’s movies, he shows us how a good person can still uphold good even in evil circumstances or in an evil profession…i.e. Butch, Jules, The Bride, Jackie Brown, Mr. White…all good guys in bad guy roles. Everything hinges upon how they react in the situations they’re presented with.

28

[quote]


Alright…let’s see here…



2) I don’t think that they choose their personality, that’d be impossible. I also don’t believe in majority rule (in morality, that’d be). If something’s right, it isn’t because people believe it to be right, but becuase there’s factual or rational backing for it. In the case of evil, an evil action is one that causes harm to others. An evil person is one that is ruled by the desire to cause harm to others, and thusly rules their life with the desire to cause harm. This, of course, originates genetically, much like anything else.



3) The system doesn’t trigger things that weren’t meant to be triggered. What I mean by this is that it isn’t society that causes evil or evil action (per se), it’s the genetic desire to solve problems (or create them, as the case may be) through violence. Everyone acts in a different sitaution in different ways. Situations aren’t the root of evil, though…they’re merely an arena in which true intentions can be viewed. Surely society conditions people for violence and evil actions, but every time any form of conditioning happens, or any idea is presented, the human mind has the ability to accept or reject it. It just depends upon the genetic makeup.



And sorry if I came off as patronizing as far as the language goes. I didn’t mean to be…it just so happens that most English speaking people I know wouldn’t fully understand what I’m saying, and I personally know that I sure as hell wouldn’t be able to understand me in another language. But if you’re cool with what I’ve said (or rather, how I’ve said it) thus far, I am too.[/quote]

I believe that its culture that decides what’s good and whats evil…things that are considered good in one point in time are considered evil 100 years later.

For instance, murder was the normal thing to do a couple of centuaries back when somebody had brought you or your family shame…



I agree that feelings for violence, hate and rage, etc originate genetically…but if you live in a society or system where there isnt much violence or tendensy to violence, these feelings arent triggered. I believe that if you trigger certain feelings a lot…like anger that person can easily be angered…if ou live in a society where murder is a normal thing to do it isnt considered evil…

I believe that if you change the system a person lives in, like eliminating as much violence as possible by whatever means that passiveness becomes normal and violence isnt triggered by individual persons…its utopia I know…but do you think that violence would seize to excist if people wouldnt be subjected to it by lets say 10.000 years…so babies growing up in a world where violence doesnt excists and doesnt get triggered…??



Cool man, just like discussing these things 8)

29

It’d be a different story if it were possible that there be 10,000 years where people weren’t exposed to things. Evil has a way of creeping up in different situations. Hatred, jealousy, fear and ignorance will live forever, whether or not people are exposed to violence or not. This things are those that trigger violence in the first place in people…the idea that one must hurt someone else for gratification of some sort. This basic evil (which transcends society, by the way) is eternal, and shall always be as long as we have different personalities.



Also, the definition of good and evil is constant, but society is constantly changing it’s laws in the hopes of supressing evil.

30

Mind blowing these topics here can get,
[quote]I don’t think that they choose their personality, that’d be impossible. I also don’t believe in majority rule (in morality, that’d be). If something’s right, it isn’t because people believe it to be right, but becuase there’s factual or rational backing for it. In the case of evil, an evil action is one that causes harm to others. An evil person is one that is ruled by the desire to cause harm to others, and thusly rules their life with the desire to cause harm. This, of course, originates genetically, much like anything else.[/quote]
You know its funny if you’d have said this some 30 years ago you would have been hanged in public. Back in those days evil actions were considert the result of wrong nurture. And now almost everything we do is result to our genetics. Maybe in 10-20 years this idea will be out dated too. But then again almost everything we learn at school now will be out dated in ten years.

31

[quote=“Holiday”]
Gee…thanks… :stuck_out_tongue:



Well, you know what I think…but I’ll write it again (you’re a native German speaker, no? Sorry…I’ll try not to use so many unusual English words this time):


  1. Free choice is a misconception. We can choose from different things, but due to our genetic structuring, we may only choose one thing.


  2. Human beings use morality to rationalize and use rationalization to protect their morals. Mr. Blonde (or many other iconic screen villains, for that matter) desire to cause harm to other people. They are sadists, they are sociopaths (meaning they wish to distance themselves from mankind), and they are evil. They are not insane, for insanity is the complete inability to use or have rational thought. Insanity, like free will, is an illusion…a misconception, if you will. People born with the desire to harm other people may have reason, and use that reason to justify their actions, or they may use reason to plan them, or they may make the conscious decision to reject reason on the basis that they’d prefer not to use it (in a sense, using reason to remove reason).


  3. And again, no one chooses who they are. It’s impossible to do that. All we can do is come to grips with our genetically created personalities and use them A) to benefit others, or B) to harm others. If a person, due to genetic inclination (or any other means) has the will to cause harm to others, he still has the WILL to cause harm to others. The fact that he didn’t create himself is irrelavent. He wouldn’t have it any other way.
    [/quote]

Hitler had 100,000s human beings killed that had mental issues because he thought it was “evil”. Back a long time ago women were hung for being witches (in most cases they werent). There is no such thing as good nor evil. I do think there actions, actions that are good or evil… also like what Hitler had done very horrific things… He was the devil in my eyes. When something happens like a murder, you hear it in the news and you think the murder is evil. But in the murders case he or she could have murder the person for some reason that we have no idea about. If we knew the reasons then in some cases the murder might have had a good reason to.





I remember a case where i man killed a cathlic preist. The reason the man killed him was because the preist had raped his son. And anyone would want to kill someone for such a sick action. Back to the witch hunts, most people couldnt act normal without being considered a “witch!”. I read a book that was true about this and most kids couldnt run around the forest because the forest was considered the devils working place…



We could talk about this shit forever.

32

Fabbie

Marvin Nash

The cops in Jackie Brown

Rufus

Warren

Arlene

Leo

Norman

Wayne Gale(In the origianl NBK-script)

Jacob

Scott

Kate

Earl McGrew

Son Number 1

Kim

33

I don’t think the fact we may not see most of those character’s do something evil or questionable means they can be considered “good”… I mean I’m sure if Marvin Nash was able to wriggle his was out of that situation after getting his ear hacked off, it would be difficult for him to remain a goodie-two-shoes.



But the same would go for anyone in a situation like that, so I wouldn’t say they’re all evil, but maybe violent people. Just life.