the Natural Born Killers controversy

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Keener

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Keener » Tue May 06, 2003 5:11 pm

Does anyone know what Stone has said about Tarantino's response ? I've been looking for a while now.

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Sebastian
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Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Sebastian » Tue May 06, 2003 7:40 pm

you gotta look at that stuff from the real side:

Tarantino sold this script BEFORE 1992! Back then, he was a nothing in the industry, anyone would fuck up his script and dont give a fuck, I mean, even when in 1993 they changed the script, they didn't care, because: HE SOLD IT!! I mean, he sold it... where's the fucking point, its not like they acquired the rights or something, he sold it. point finale.
if QT didn't want anyone to fuck around with his script, well damn me, dont sell it!!!

as much as i like QT to make NBK himself, he sold it. thats his problem.

and really, back in 1992/93 noone gave a fuck, why should they?

Toothpick_Vic_Vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Toothpick_Vic_Vega » Tue May 06, 2003 9:46 pm

you gotta look at that stuff from the real side:

as much as i like QT to make NBK himself, he sold it. thats his problem.

and really, back in 1992/93 noone gave a fuck, why should they?
Tony Scott consulted QT when he made True Romance, I still think Stone shouldve shown some respect to QT as a fellow writer and done the same. If he was planning on not staying true to QTs original ideas, he shouldve changed the title of the film at least.

I like most of Stones movies, but I still think NBK is a piece of shit.

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Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Scarface » Tue May 06, 2003 11:39 pm

Did you know that QT has NEVER seen NBK? Check out this cool interview:

http://www.monkeypeaches.com/020717B.html

He even speaks about OS "stealing" his script. As much as I love QT, I'm not sure if this is a totally fair statement regarding Stone...

Toothpick_Vic_Vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Toothpick_Vic_Vega » Wed May 07, 2003 4:00 pm

Did you know that QT has NEVER seen NBK? Check out this cool interview:

http://www.monkeypeaches.com/020717B.html
No offense Scar, but that has to be one of the worst interviews I've ever read. You can hardly understand what the Chinese guy is saying. lol.

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Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Sebastian » Wed May 07, 2003 8:53 pm

that's because its a bad re-translation

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Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Scarface » Thu May 08, 2003 1:40 am

No offense taken Vic, I do agree that the dude's english is somewhat fucked up  ;D. What I can't understand is how the fuck did QT know that NBK was a piece of crap without even seeing it?! Doesn't make sense to me.

Mr.Crimson

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Mr.Crimson » Wed May 28, 2003 9:04 am

Sounds like bullshit to me.  Either that or a shitty translation.

Mr.Blonde

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Mr.Blonde » Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:33 pm

I got to ask you people a question and I do am not trying to a fucking ass whipe but remember without Larrence Bender ans the selling of NBK and TR he would not have enough money for Reservoir Dogs.
and please do not tell me to go smeg my self
:)

Toothpick_Vic_Vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Toothpick_Vic_Vega » Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:43 pm

I
and please do not tell me to go smeg my self
:)
GO smeg yourself.

NBK, TR and Reservoir Dogs have NOTHING to do with each other.

QT got to make Reservoir Dogs because he had Lawrence Bender, Harvey Keitel, Monte Hellman and Richard Gladstein at Live Entertainment behind him after they read his script and all loved it.

And I still think NBK is a pile of stinky horse dung.

bullet_tooth_tony

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by bullet_tooth_tony » Tue Jun 03, 2003 10:23 pm


GO smeg yourself.

NBK, TR and Reservoir Dogs have NOTHING to do with each other.

QT got to make Reservoir Dogs because he had Lawrence Bender, Harvey Keitel, Monte Hellman and Richard Gladstein at Live Entertainment behind him after they read his script and all loved it.

And I still think NBK is a pile of stinky horse dung.
Yeah, RD had nothing to do with that other stuff.  And thanks to Harvey Keitel, we got a colour movie instead of a black and white one.  Vic, you gotta get past the fact the NBK wasn't true to the original story.  If you just ignore the fact that it was originally written by QT, it is actually a really good movie.  

P.S.  Go smeg yourself twice Mr. Blonde
Last edited by bullet_tooth_tony on Tue Jun 03, 2003 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mr.Blonde

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Mr.Blonde » Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:14 pm

Toothpick and Bullet-Tooth Tony:  
Go smeg myself twice?  Is that legal (let alone possible) in the U.K.?  Frankly, I'm rather puzzled by your reaction to what I thought was a minor but essentially true statement, that Tarantino was able to finance the making of RD from the proceeds gained from the sale of the TR and NBK screenplays.  I mean, weren't both TR and NBK derived from the 500-page script "Open Road," because Tarantino's fear that he couldn't market OR as a single commodity led him to break it into what eventually became the separate scripts for TR and NBK?  As far as NBK being the end product of equine consumption, it could be argued that its faults are due to Oliver Stone's rather heavy-handed treatment of the material, while its virtues are the lingering traces of Tarantino's original vision.
Last edited by Mr.Blonde on Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

teeth-nuts

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by teeth-nuts » Wed Jun 04, 2003 3:37 am

I do hate to inerrupt your arrgument about the merits of NBK (personally, i dont like it much at all) but isnt smeg and abreviation of smegma, which is A sebaceous secretion, especially the cheesy secretion that collects under the prepuce or around the clitoris and is extreamly nasty. How can one smeg his or her self? I think we can all agree that Natural Born Killers is a good movie in its own right.

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Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Sebastian » Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:46 pm

well, of all the arguments, see this as a fact, folks:
if you SELL your script, you lose every right on that script. so IF you sell it, it's YOUR fault if it doesnt end up how you want it, because if that bothers you, don't fucking sell it.
that is so.
of course we'd all prefer a more Quentin-esque NBK but we can't change it now.

as for TR: well, it ended up on Tony Scott's desk, but that wasn't the first adress either. if QT had had bad luck, it might've ended at OLiver Stone's desk as well....

Toothpick_Vic_Vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Toothpick_Vic_Vega » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:33 pm

well, of all the arguments, see this as a fact, folks:
if you SELL your script, you lose every right on that script. so IF you sell it, it's YOUR fault if it doesnt end up how you want it, because if that bothers you, don't fucking sell it.
I still think when someone writes a script and sells it to someone, they expect to see THAT script they wrote be made like it was written. Thats QTs time and ideas on those pages. To him, thats an important thing. Maybe others dont care, but I can see why he would.

What Stone did was take QTs original script and he had some other guys turn it into something else. So in actuality it wasnt Natural Born Killers. Stone shouldve changed the name of the movie at least. Its BS.

If you disagree with THAT, then your a complete asshole! :)

Toothpick_Vic_Vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Toothpick_Vic_Vega » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:48 pm

 Vic, you gotta get past the fact the NBK wasn't true to the original story.  If you just ignore the fact that it was originally written by QT, it is actually a really good movie.
I dont like the movie, I never liked it, even when I didnt know QT wrote the screenplay back in 1994. I just think its a mess, and I hate Woody Harrelson, hes a goofball. Its just a big load of BS to me. But if you like it, thats cool.

bullet_tooth_tony

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by bullet_tooth_tony » Wed Jun 04, 2003 8:46 pm

Ya sorry, now that I've read your other comments I can see where you're coming from.  Woody Harrelson is sort of a goof.(Kingpin was one of the worst movies ever) Robert Downey Jr. is great though.

Puck

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Puck » Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:10 pm

Hey everyone, guess I'm up to my big #2 post now.  ;)

I remembered seeing Natural Born Killers on video when I was 8 or 9 yrs old, and half way liking it simply because of the ending, but other than that I couldn't remember a damn thing about the movie, script, actors, or even the backstory.  All I've known for the past 10 yrs roughly, was that even at the age of 9 yrs old, I could tell that Robert Downey Jr. was supposed to be playing Geraldo Rivera, and the fact that he got blown away was hilarious.

Now, I just saw the movie for pretty much the first time all the way through last weekend on a Cinema Max weekend free preview thingie and here are my thoughts:

1)  The acting was good all around though not spectacular.  Woody was great in the lead role,  Tim Sizemore was good (but he's given far more powerful performances), Tommy Lee Jones was particularly strong, and Robert Downey Jr.'s character is even more hilarious to me given that I've actually seen clips of Geraldo's new show "Geraldo at Large" in which he's usally running around some Afghani or Iraqi desert with a camera crew, a wierd, fucked up hat on his head, and generally overdramaticizing whats happening around him  (i.e. the "sniper incident" in Afghanistan that happend over a year ago now).  I still love the prison interview, the part where he intially flips out, and also where he gets blown away, probably now more than ever.

2)  The first half hour of the movie was just screwed...every last bit of it.  Watching it, I could see that there might have been some decidely Tarantino esque lines in there, but I could hardly focus on them due to the messed up visuals and unnecessary background sound effects.  After sitting throug the first ten minutes, I found myself sayins (prior to having read any Tarantino interviews on the matter, of course), there is no way in hell Quentin would have liked they way this was directed.

3)  This is one of those controversial movies that you are either going to love or hate.  As a Tarantino fan sitting down to watch this movie for the first time in years, I was initially very disappointed; I was expecting at least some of Quentin's attitude to come through in the characters, but alas, it was pretty much obscured by over the top (but still relatively good) performances and messed up editing.  However, once I came to accept the movie as it was I became much happier with the film.

Its certainly not on level with any of Quentin Tarantino's work, but its still not a bad film.  Its a decent piece of work, and when at its best, is actually great.  Still, I think Quentin, as much as I respect him, should stop bitching about having his script "stolen" unless he plans to, in the future, get the rights back to Natural Born Killers, and totally remake it.  

Spike

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Spike » Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:20 pm

A few things:

1.  Dude, you saw NBK when you were 8 or 9?  Where the hell were your parents? :)

2.  Tarantino sold his script to Oliver Stone, not his right to bitch about movies.

3.  I barely remember this movie, I saw it on video when it came out.  I think I was a High School senior and I rented it because I was Tarantino obsessed at the time.  I remember being sorely disappointed and vaguely annoyed by the way this movie was shot.  Disorienting.  It was a pan and scan version so maybe I need to see a widescreen version on DVD.  Since I'm currently Tarantino obsessed again, I may as well rent the thing again.  

4.  I just read the script off the site(thanks, seb) and didn't really love it.  Or like it even.  Especially that huge section where we are basically watching a TV show about Mickey and Mallory as exposition.  One of my pet peeves in film is the "TV newscaster as exposition" device and this script had several pages of that.  I plan to watch the flick again soon to compare and contrast.  Curiosity, you know?

Does anyone have a link to a decent interview with QT on his views of NBK and Stone?

Puck

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Puck » Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:37 pm

A few things:

1.  Dude, you saw NBK when you were 8 or 9?  Where the hell were your parents? :)
My dad was the one who rented it.  He loves Oliver Stone - Platoon and Wall Street are two of his all time favorite movies.  

mysterio

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by mysterio » Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:49 pm

KINGPIN is fucking hilarious!

Bill Murray knocks it out the box!  

I didn't mind Woody as Mickey.

The whole first scene I think Stone got right but the rest of it with the crappy editing sucked the script up and fucked it up!

mysterio

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by mysterio » Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:51 pm

Did you know that QT has NEVER seen NBK? Check out this cool interview:

http://www.monkeypeaches.com/020717B.html

He even speaks about OS "stealing" his script. As much as I love QT, I'm not sure if this is a totally fair statement regarding Stone...

He says he's never seen it - but then he goes into some detail about what scenes he hated... ooooooooookay

Toothpick_Vic_Vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Toothpick_Vic_Vega » Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:22 pm

He says he's never seen it - but then he goes into some detail about what scenes he hated... ooooooooookay
Maybe QT read the rewrite of his script or people he knows told him some of the scenes they changed from his original screenplay. Why would he say he didnt see it, if he did?

I think NBK shouldve been called "Mickey and Mallory".  I still think its a piece of crap movie.

BadMotherFucker

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by BadMotherFucker » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:36 am

according to what i've read, QT didn't really complain or bitch about Stone ruinning his potential script. he just said it was a piece of shit. i have the right to call anything a piece of shit, and no one would complain that i didn't. QT can say whatever the fuck he wants about whatever the fuck he wants. i guess.

Spike

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Spike » Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:26 pm



He says he's never seen it - but then he goes into some detail about what scenes he hated... ooooooooookay
I wouldn't put too much faith in that article, the translation is awful.

Ezekiel

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Ezekiel » Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:06 pm

I hate Natural Born Killers. I find it difficult to watch it`s so bad. I would have liked to see how it should have been but oh well. I did love Platoon though.

teriyakidoughnut

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by teriyakidoughnut » Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:59 am

I wanted to watch all of Killers but physically couldn't. Every scene shot in dutch angle the mixing of mono and color, switching between film. It was an "artistic" mess. He made that movie as if it were the last he would ever make and needed to use every style possible.

I'm sure Tarantino would have loved to make Killers himself and I would have loved to see what his version was. Since that isn't possible, I'm not even going to address it.

I totally agree with Quentin, it was a piece of shit.

Bullet

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Bullet » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:14 am

Alright it comes down to this. Quentin thinking Oliver would make a good film sold him the script not knowing that Mr Stone was gonna shit all over his story. I tryed watching this piece of shit and it was one long dizzing array of bizzare charachters and violence. Like take the sitcom gag. It wasn't funny or even darkly funny, the thought of that kid belonging to Mallery was almost aubsurd. Mickey's charachter made no sense either (how the hell can you throw a knife through a window and kill the guy on the other side) the ending jail riot was disturbingly mind rotting pointless violence. Tommy Lee Jones is laughable as the "Nutty" warden. Robert Downy Jr convinced me that he could annoy with his charachter. Woody Harrelson sucks in every movie hes in and Juillet Lewis was VERY stupid and she just tried too damn hard. The violence while brutal wasn't disturbing and the end 10 mins with the onslaught of "disturbing" images meant to put your mind into overdriver DID NOT work Oliver Stone thought "lets make it worse and more annoying then it already is". So Quentin saw this masterpiece himself and called it a piece of shit, but if you think hes wrong then why the fuck are you on this site?

Natural Born Killers is a disgrace to film history.
Last edited by Bullet on Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

trippingmartian

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by trippingmartian » Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:03 pm

Sorry, if I'm bumping an old thread here. I'd just like to say that Natural Born Killers is one of my favourite movies of all time. It has nothing to do with Quentin, either. I just find it an enthralling and sometimes disturbing thing to watch, but it really does contain some of the best acting and cinematography of the time.

Even if you don't agree with the message that Stone is putting across, you've got to admit that the story itself plays out in such a gripping fashion that you can't help but root for the two crazed killers to make it out alive in the end. The prison riot section of the movie is still one of the most memorable things I've ever seen on film.

That is all.  8)

Mr_Blonde_is_cool

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Mr_Blonde_is_cool » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:58 pm

I didnt read all the posts so if someone else said this, sorry
What if the movie was written by Stone himself, and Tarantino had nothing to do with it. Is the movie then a pile of shit or it is a good, solid movie?

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