the Natural Born Killers controversy

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Sebastian
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the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Sebastian » Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:28 pm

Quentin himself called Oliver Stone's "NBK" a "piece of shit".
It was one of his early scripts that he sold. Oliver Stone made one of his weird anti-media movies out of it.

That Quentin never acknowledged Stones work is a not exactly a miracle. Although I consider NBK as a critical masterpiece, it's still not what it should have been, if you read QT's script.

What do you think? Is QT right in hating NBK? I mean, he SOLD it!!! If he doesn't like what it has become, he should have made it himself.....

I recently watched NIXON (by Stone), that's also a masterpiece. PLATOON, is good, too. U-TURN is a remake of RED ROCK WEST and is definitely worth watching. ANY GIVEN SUNDAY is a football masterpiece too. NATURAL BORN KILLERS fits into that Stone movie buch. Critical, cynic, mature, extreme and thrilling, and weird.

NBK - a damned movie?

Toothpick_Vic_Vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Toothpick_Vic_Vega » Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:55 pm

I never really liked NBK. I dont think it was right that Oliver Stone took Quentins story/screenplay and fucked it up. QT liked Tony Scotts version of True Romance, because he was cool enough to talk with QT about where he was going with it.  Stone shouldve had enough respect for QT to consult with him, and not just redo the whole story like he ended up doing.

Stone has co-written some great films. Scarface being one of them. Its probably my favorite DePalma film. He also co-wrote Conan The Barbarian, a fun action adventure film.

As far as Stone as a filmmaker, I think hes definitely a great one. From Salvador to Any Given Sunday, his looks at American society, at our flaws and our triumphs are just excellent. My fav Stone films are : Platoon, The Doors, Born on the 4th of July Wall Street and JFK.  Platoon (semi auto biographical look at Stones time in Vietnam). The Doors (the rise and fall of one of our greatest American myths/icons, Jim Morrison) Born on The 4th (the story of Ron Kovics tragic life after and before Vietnam), JFK (a look at one mans fight to find the truth behind JFKs assassination), Wall Street (a look at the allure money has on people, how it can enpower and destroy people).

IMO, every film movie geek should have some Oliver Stone films in their collection.
Last edited by Toothpick_Vic_Vega on Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zappa

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Zappa » Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:09 pm

QT hates NBK because Stone didn`t save some elements of the script which were really important to Quentin, like that certain "feel" you got when you are watching Dogs or Pulp, OR True Romance. But still, Oliver owned the script so he had the rights to do whatever he would like to do with it. And it was that asshole Murphy who fucked both Q and his pal, Rand Vossler.
Anyway, I would give NBK 3 out of 5. Actors are good, but I dont really like about Juliette Lewis in this movie, altough She was good in FDTD. Woodys performance is great, and Tom Sizemore is really good too. And the music is pretty good in the film. Other Stone films i really dont lika a lot, but scarface is GOLD!!!

hollywood_hogan

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by hollywood_hogan » Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:30 pm

Well,I love NBK..it's my favorite Oliver Stone film,with Salvador as the second.
Conan and Scarface are just fantastic,with brutal violence...which gives both these movies that extra edge.Also see Midnight Express,another great movie with an Oliver Stone script.

Jules_Winfield

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Jules_Winfield » Sun Jun 23, 2002 12:46 am

I dont know what to say about NBK. Im really stuck in the middle of this one.
It is very weird and sometimes it got annoying with the weirdness and if the script stayed the way QT wrote it then it would have been much better.
On the other hand,
it is 100% original and a movie which is hard to forget. The performances are great except for Julliet Lewis who just pisses me off in whatever she is in. Tommy Lee Jones blew me away with his performance.
The soundtrack is great and the story is good and some scenes are excellent (i.e. Nicky and Mallory braking away from jail wiht Lenord Cohen in the background ... beautiful)
4/5 for me. I understand why QT doesnt like it, of course.

J.W.

The_Man_With_No_Name

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by The_Man_With_No_Name » Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:50 pm

It's ok. Tarantino shouldn't bitch, he sold it. He would have done the movie a lot better though.

toothpick_vic_vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by toothpick_vic_vega » Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:18 am

It's ok. Tarantino shouldn't bitch, he sold it. He would have done the movie a lot better though.
He shouldnt bitch? If I wrote a screenplay, sold it and the fuckin director ruined the original story, Id be pissed too. QT has every right to bitch about that. Its the same thing that happened with Stephen King and Kubrick's version of The Shining. If your gonna use someones screenplay, use it, dont turn it into a half-ass piece of shit movie with nothing to do with the writer's vision.  

The_Man_With_No_Name

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by The_Man_With_No_Name » Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:28 am


He shouldnt bitch? If I wrote a screenplay, sold it and the fuckin director ruined the original story, Id be pissed too. QT has every right to bitch about that. Its the same thing that happened with Stephen King and Kubrick's version of The Shining. If your gonna use someones screenplay, use it, dont turn it into a half-ass piece of shit movie with nothing to do with the writer's vision.  
He shouldn't have sold it.

Keener

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Keener » Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:50 am

Upon first viewing, I didn't really like NBK. Now I love it. I understand QT's complaints and I would probably feel the same way. I still enjoy the film, though. And what's with all the Lewis bashing ? I liked her as Mallory.

Anyway, anyone know where I can get ahold of Tarantino's original on the net or are all fakes or something ?

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Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Sebastian » Sat Jan 11, 2003 3:04 pm

the script that you can download at www.tarantino.info is Tarantino's original script.

hollywood_hogan

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by hollywood_hogan » Sat Jan 11, 2003 3:56 pm

On the From Dusk Till Dawn commentary Quentin calls Juliette Lewis one of the best actresses of her generation.
I tend to agree....
I especially like her in NBK,From Dusk Till Dawn and Cape Fear.

Mike

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Mike » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:27 pm

He shouldn't have sold it.
of course he should have.  He was a starving artist at the time.   He needed the 10g.  He bought the red Malibu with it.

toothpick_vic_vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by toothpick_vic_vega » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:53 pm

of course he should have. ÊHe was a starving artist at the time. Ê He needed the 10g. ÊHe bought the red Malibu with it.
No, he shouldnt have sold it. He has said he didnt even care about that Malibu.

NBK shouldve been kept away from Stone. Then we'd have NBK, QTs first movie movie universe film AND Kill Bill his second. :)

Mike

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Mike » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:53 am

Let's say QT never sold NBK and made it after ResDogs, what if NBK would've been a commercial flop?

QT got to do Pulp because of the success of ResDogs, but what if NBK would lose money...there's a possibility he wouldn't be able to get Pulp off the ground.  Or maybe then he would still make Pulp but without a studio this time.

Can you imagine if Pulp was an independent film like Reservoir Dogs?

filmstudent

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by filmstudent » Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:10 am

I can not even begin to stress how much NBK sucked as a movie.  Oliver Stone completely ripped apart QT screenplay by making it a huge satire on the media.  This much is obvious, but why did it suck?  Not becaus eof the message but what the message conveyed.  The constant changing of camera angles and  bizarre not needed visuals fucked the whole movie up.  I think it would have been a way better movie had you taken out everything but the basic story premises.

spinstercycle

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by spinstercycle » Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:25 am

What did everyone think about the Rodney Dangerfield segment....

I feel the poor response to NBK discouraged our sweaty freind from "acting" forever!!!!!!
Last edited by spinstercycle on Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

toothpick_vic_vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by toothpick_vic_vega » Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:19 pm

What did everyone think about the Rodney Dangerfield segment....

I feel the poor response to NBK discouraged our sweaty freind from "acting" forever!!!!!!
Rodney never gets any RESPECT!

"In my high school, the football players were alot tougher, after they sacked the quarterback, they'd go after his FAMILY!" - Back To School (1986)

Holiday

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Holiday » Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:35 am

Hey everybody. I've been admiring these forums for quite a while now. I have some comments on NBK and comments on other comments. Here they are:

1) As far as movies go, NBK is awesome.
2) As far as Tarantino movies go, NBK is trash and Stone should be shot.
3) I prefer to think of this film as an Oliver Stone masterpiece as opposed to a Tarantino film.
4) Tarantino shouldn't have sold the script, but if I were Tarantino, I'd get pissed to.
5) Tommy Lee Jones is awesome in this movie.
6) Acting and directing is superb and original.
7) Tarantino's hating of this film should be exclusive to Tarantino. As film fans, I think we should we should give this film an equal oppertunity. If you hate the film, I'm cool with that, but don't hate it because Stone screwed up a perfectly good Tarantino script...wait...that didn't make much sense...oh well.
8) The film would've been much better as a strait forward Tarantino film, but Stones turing of the film into a Media Satire is both ingenious and worthy of praise.
9) If it bothers Tarantino all that much, he should shoot Stone.
10) All in all, don't hate on NBK.

Now for other comments:

He shouldnt bitch? If I wrote a screenplay, sold it and the fuckin director ruined the original story, Id be pissed too. QT has every right to bitch about that. Its the same thing that happened with Stephen King and Kubrick's version of The Shining. If your gonna use someones screenplay, use it, dont turn it into a half-ass piece of shit movie with nothing to do with the writer's vision.  
1) I've seen a bunch of your posts, and you generally have a good idea about what you're talking about. Not the case here. Your opinion is fine here, but the Stephen King referance is so unbelievably friggin dumb and holds no water. Kubrick is one of the greats. I'd put him in the top 5 of all time, easily (under Tarantino and Hitchcock of course). He did perfect justice to Stephen Kings novel. His vision of the film is far greater than that of Stephen Kings novel (no disrespect to Kubrick). And Stephen did, instead of complaining ,(not that Tarantino shouldn't mind you), make a new version of the Shining released in 1997. This version overseen by King (but not directed) was four and a half hours long, with incredably slow pacing, and pretty boring. Kubricks 1980 "The Shining" is a masterpiece, while King's 1997 version is a mess. You had no friggin idea about what you were talking about. End of discussion.

spinstercycle

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by spinstercycle » Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:05 am

WELL. I don't know if our dear ToothpickVicVega should be offended or scarred for life! Welcome HOLIDAY- your messianic connotations proceed you.

toothpick_vic_vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by toothpick_vic_vega » Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:10 am

Hey everybody. I've been admiring these forums for quite a while now. I have some comments on NBK and comments on other comments. Here they are:

1) As far as movies go, NBK is awesome.
2) As far as Tarantino movies go, NBK is trash and Stone should be shot.
3) I prefer to think of this film as an Oliver Stone masterpiece as opposed to a Tarantino film.
4) Tarantino shouldn't have sold the script, but if I were Tarantino, I'd get pissed to.
5) Tommy Lee Jones is awesome in this movie.
6) Acting and directing is superb and original.
7) Tarantino's hating of this film should be exclusive to Tarantino. As film fans, I think we should we should give this film an equal oppertunity. If you hate the film, I'm cool with that, but don't hate it because Stone screwed up a perfectly good Tarantino script...wait...that didn't make much sense...oh well.
8) The film would've been much better as a strait forward Tarantino film, but Stones turing of the film into a Media Satire is both ingenious and worthy of praise.
9) If it bothers Tarantino all that much, he should shoot Stone.
10) All in all, don't hate on NBK.

Now for other comments:


1) I've seen a bunch of your posts, and you generally have a good idea about what you're talking about. Not the case here. Your opinion is fine here, but the Stephen King referance is so unbelievably friggin dumb and holds no water. Kubrick is one of the greats. I'd put him in the top 5 of all time, easily (under Tarantino and Hitchcock of course). He did perfect justice to Stephen Kings novel. His vision of the film is far greater than that of Stephen Kings novel (no disrespect to Kubrick). And Stephen did, instead of complaining ,(not that Tarantino shouldn't mind you), make a new version of the Shining released in 1997. This version overseen by King (but not directed) was four and a half hours long, with incredably slow pacing, and pretty boring. Kubricks 1980 "The Shining" is a masterpiece, while King's 1997 version is a mess. You had no friggin idea about what you were talking about. End of discussion.
Holiday, your English is terrible dude. Where are you from?

Yes I meant what I said about the Tarantino/Stone and King/Kubrick comparison. Both films were made without the original writers input and vision. Both films were totally raped by both directors. I hate NBK and I hate The Shining too.  

Holiday, I dont talk shit in this forum, I might get a little defensive about certain things, but I do not say things I dont mean.

Holiday

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Holiday » Wed Feb 26, 2003 5:50 am

Again, a few comments:

I never said you didn't say what you meant. What I said was that you had no idea what you were talking about, and the fact that you are debating me is further proof of this.

Maybe Kubrick altered or cut out a some of the plot and excessive details to improve pacing, but on the whole, I'd say it was pretty true to the novel. More so than many adaptations anyway. Some things must be taken out in order to make a successful and powerful film. Take the Silence of the Lambs for example. They kept the tone and a majority of the plot, while taking out some side stories and most notably the background of Jame Gumb. They did this to improve the pacing and make a film that never lets up in terms of thrills. They did just about the same thing "The Shining." Both films are universally considered classics.

If you think The Shining sucked, I'm cool with that. Its your deal. But don't ever try to make it into something it isn't, such as a hack-job of a movie. Love it or hate it, it is a great movie. You have seen both of the movies and read the novel, right? I mean, you aren't basing this all on the words of King or someone else. Because if you have read and seen them, you should at least understand how it isn't "being raped" by Kubrick. Your opinions can suck, and I'm fine with that, but don't try to share them with others if you are backing them up with fallacies.

Also, I never accused you of "talking shit." That usually requires and insight that you do not appear to possess.

And finally, I don't think my English is all that bad, I'll admit I have some errors in my posts, but come on.

Please don't make me expound anymore, just let this one go. I'd hate to have to embarrass you further.
Last edited by Holiday on Wed Feb 26, 2003 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

hollywood_hogan

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by hollywood_hogan » Wed Feb 26, 2003 10:52 am

I must agree with Holiday completely here.I've read the Shining and seen the movie and miniseries many times.

Kubrick wisely altered the script from the book,but I still feel the essence is kept.And what is most important,he made a great movie from a great book.
Actually King himself altered things from the book for the miniseries,probably to be different from the movie.
King's version is good,but can't compare to Kubrick's in any way.
I feel that Oliver Stone did fantastic work with NKB,and loved the added scenes with Rodney Dangerfield.
The only sad thing is that he didn't keep the great courtroom scene.

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Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Sebastian » Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:04 pm

1) As far as movies go, NBK is awesome.
2) As far as Tarantino movies go, NBK is trash and Stone should be shot.
3) I prefer to think of this film as an Oliver Stone masterpiece as opposed to a Tarantino film.
4) Tarantino shouldn't have sold the script, but if I were Tarantino, I'd get pissed to.
5) Tommy Lee Jones is awesome in this movie.
6) Acting and directing is superb and original.
7) Tarantino's hating of this film should be exclusive to Tarantino. As film fans, I think we should we should give this film an equal oppertunity. If you hate the film, I'm cool with that, but don't hate it because Stone screwed up a perfectly good Tarantino script...wait...that didn't make much sense...oh well.
8) The film would've been much better as a strait forward Tarantino film, but Stones turing of the film into a Media Satire is both ingenious and worthy of praise.
9) If it bothers Tarantino all that much, he should shoot Stone.
10) All in all, don't hate on NBK.
i pretty much agree on that.

you have to take a look at them seperately, if you critizise NBK in the tarantino-context your results will be negative.
but look at NBK without even thinking about the entire Tarantino thing, and you come across a great media-satire film.

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Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Sebastian » Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:04 pm

1) As far as movies go, NBK is awesome.
2) As far as Tarantino movies go, NBK is trash and Stone should be shot.
3) I prefer to think of this film as an Oliver Stone masterpiece as opposed to a Tarantino film.
4) Tarantino shouldn't have sold the script, but if I were Tarantino, I'd get pissed to.
5) Tommy Lee Jones is awesome in this movie.
6) Acting and directing is superb and original.
7) Tarantino's hating of this film should be exclusive to Tarantino. As film fans, I think we should we should give this film an equal oppertunity. If you hate the film, I'm cool with that, but don't hate it because Stone screwed up a perfectly good Tarantino script...wait...that didn't make much sense...oh well.
8) The film would've been much better as a strait forward Tarantino film, but Stones turing of the film into a Media Satire is both ingenious and worthy of praise.
9) If it bothers Tarantino all that much, he should shoot Stone.
10) All in all, don't hate on NBK.
i pretty much agree on that.

you have to take a look at them seperately, if you critizise NBK in the tarantino-context your results will be negative.
but look at NBK without even thinking about the entire Tarantino thing, and you come across a great media-satire film.

toothpick_vic_vega

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by toothpick_vic_vega » Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:40 pm

I can honestly say, without the QT connection part, that I did not like NBK when I first saw it. I havent watched it in years, but I'll probably see it again sometime.

To me it was just an over the top rehash of Bonnie and Clyde. I know its a satire on the media and how they portray violence, etc. I just didnt dig it. It wasnt my thing at all.

If you wanna see a great lovers on the run film, watch BADLANDS or TRUE ROMANCE. Those films rock. :)

Holiday

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Holiday » Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:38 am

I agree here. Badlands and True Romance rock!

Keener

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Keener » Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:47 am

I liked The Shining.

I really didn't like NBK the first time I saw it, but I happened to catch it a second time and now I love it. I understand QT's disgust but as an audience, I loved the movie. I even like the crazy camera angles now. It gives you a vibe of seeing things in a crazy Knox-like manner.

Life isn't always fair.

Mr.Crimson

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Mr.Crimson » Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:19 am

Ya I agree with holiday... PPl should look at things from a different point of view.  If you look at NBK as a Tarantino fan, you'll wanna hunt down Stone.  However, if you look at it as a movie which has nuthn to do with QT, its an excellent film. As simple as that.

Mr.Blonde

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Mr.Blonde » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:16 am

I liked NBk but I had a problem about the point that Oliver Stone gave it but I do agree with Holiday about the different points of view most people have on Natural Born Killers but most people look at it as a Oliver Stone film but I wish they stuck with the original script of NBK.
Last edited by Mr.Blonde on Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Holiday

Re: the Natural Born Killers controversy

Post by Holiday » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:15 pm

Yeah, the original the the real deal. I wasn't all that impressed with the killing of the warden in Stone's film, as he was my favorite character, but, oh well.

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